I have a hugh collection of Wavs. I keep my wavs on a harddrive and some on DVD, offline. In otherwords on a hdd that I usually don't use in my machine. I also rip the songs to MP3 for actual listening on my computer via WinAmp.

There are 3 reasons I collect and keep Wavs
1)I like the idea of AG appending mp3 info to wavs so that I can quickly re-rip into various mp3s of various qualities without having to re-type the ID3 tag.

2) I like to create cds using the "normalization" features which requires Wav files.

3)I want a backup way of keep all my songs in a near-perfect quality so that down the road I can re-rip quickly into whatever latest-greatest compressed format may come along.

BTW: I don't mind buying big drives to accomodate hugh collections of Wav files.

I have seen bits and pieces on these forums about FLAC?? or other "Loss-less" formats.
My questions are:

1) Does Lossless=uncompressed? ie.
Is ripping a CD into Wavs considered "loss-less" Is Wav completely uncompressed?

2)Is there a better way for me to accomplish my goals for keeping a near-perfect format that I can use later to re-rip in coimpressed formats yet to come?

3)The other thing that concerns me is: Is Wav "Windows" only format that can't be read by say "Linux" or Mac OS? I only use Windows right now, but really would like to start experimenting with Linux and other OSs and don't want to be trapped into Windows just because I'm using "wav" files.

Please note, I'm almost a "newbie" at this, so please keep replys in non-techno language, Id appreciate that. Thanx

2) By using a compressed format, you get much better tagging options. As far as I know, tagging wav files isn't standard, and could cause compatibility problems in other programs. Plus you save anywhere from 30% to 70% on hard drive space (compressed lossless formats are variable bitrate). Orchestral stuff and anything quiet compresses especially good.

3) If your looking for a good cross platform format, I would recommend FLAC over the rest. It even has some portable hardware support.

http://flac.sourceforge.net/

If you need to convert from one format to another, there are several great free programs available. Frontah, dbPowerAmp, and Foobar (my favorite) are just three I can name off the top of my head. These programs will allow you to "transcode" from one format to another without losing your tags (they are transferred automatically), which makes the process fast and easy. I would recommend heading over to Hydrogenaudio (where all the compressed audio junkies hang out) for more info and user support on doing this.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org

Edit: Minor fixes and additions to this post.

Edit: If you decide to go with lossless compression, you should also research ReplayGain, which is a lossless method of normalization.

[This message has been edited by XenoS on 12 September 2004 @ 16:44]

So what are Wavs then? I'm thinking they are completely uncompressed arent they? So isn't that the purest form of digital music files I can get then? In this sense a Wav file is exact duplicate of the .cda file on the cd isn't it, so it is "loss-less" in the sense it doesnt lose any quality when ripped as a Wav right?

I don't care about saving hdd space. I am after purity so that at least I start from the best digital file to start with and "compress" using whatever method I want to for actual use. The only reason I convert to any compressed format is because of the RAM/Resources that it takes to load them into an app like WinAmp. Also of course, using Wavs in a portable device is not really an option since they are too large.

I don't listen to music in albums, I rip only the tunes I like from an album and then choose songs willy-nilly the mp3s/wavs I want to listen to and load into WinAmp--like a jukebox. I keep them in folders on my hdd in genre's. In the future I want to be able to encode my complete collection of say "pop" relatively effortlessly without having to go back to the cds, without having remember which songs I like on any particular cd and also keep tag info.

In Audiograbber I can do that with Wavs with the "Make MP3 option. I can select a whole huge folder of Wavs and rip them into mp3's quickly without having to feed endless cds into my machine.

If I were to start say ripping into a Loss-less format such as FLAC intead of keeping the Wav file, How could I then say rip into another format such as MP3 or Ogg or? using the Flac File as the source?

Do you see what I mean? Is there away to rip from FLAC file into MP3 or Ogg like you can from a Wav file? If so will the FLAC file feed the tag info into an MP3 file or Ogg file?

Hope that clarifies more.

The wav format is just a container actually. So it could contain compressed music, though I don't think that this is how it is used generally. It is most often an uncompressed and very high bitrate audio stream, meaning very large files.

Lossless audio compression is exactly what it sounds like. It's audio that has been compressed in a way that is mathematically lossless. Playing back a losslessly compressed file is exactly the same as playing back the original wav file. When you compress an audio file, you are encoding it. In order to play it back, it has to be decoded, and is done so on the fly in whatever music player you choose to use (Winamp, Foobar, etc). It can also be decoded back to it's original format, a wav. This decoded wav will be a bit for bit perfect copy of the original wav you encoded from. In other words, absolutely nothing has been lost or degraded.

In order to convert an audio file from one format into another, you will need a program to do so. I listed several free ones in my previous post. The act of converting from one audio format to another is commonly known as transcoding. For example, I use Monkey's Audio (a similar format to FLAC in that it's lossless) to compress all my albums. When I need MP3's or OGG Vorbis files (or any other kind), I'll use the free program Foobar2000 to directly transcode from one to the other. All tags will be transfered automatically in the process. Transcoding is very easy as long as you have all the necessary codecs installed, all of which are freely available on the internet. You can do as many files at a time as you want. Just load them up, start the conversion process with a few easy clicks, and come back later when it's finished transcoding everything.

If you ware interested in doing full album rips in the future, you'll probably want to consider using a program called EAC to make sure your rips are secure (have no errors), and that they've been copied exactly as is on the CD. The reason is gaps. You may have noticed that on some CD's certain songs can run continuously over several tracks without a pause. You will want to research gapless ripping and encoding so that when you go to listen to these albums, no strange pauses are added where they shouldn't be. Most audio formats are gapless by nature, however I believe MP3 is not (though LAME encoded MP3 files should play back gapless on a player that supports them properly, such as Foobar2000, as long as they were ripped properly).

Whew, I hope that answers all your questions.

Edit: If your looking for codecs, here is a good place to start:

http://www.rarewares.org/

[This message has been edited by XenoS on 13 September 2004 @ 02:23]

You said: "If you need to convert from one format to another, there are several great free programs available. Frontah, dbPowerAmp, and Foobar..."

Are these tools doing the same kind of thing that Audiograbber does when it takes a Wav file and makes an MP3? ( ie When I use the feature "Make MP3" from a Wav file? Is this Wav>MP3 process known as "Transcoding" or "converting" then?

Is the words "transcoding" and "convert" mean the same thing. Newbie jargon confusion, sorry.

How to the tools you mentioned differ from Audiograbber then?
Thanks in advance.. good karma to ya

Yes, when you use Audiograbber, you are ripping from CD to your hard drive in uncompressed wav format. Audiograbber, if you have it set to do so, will then transcode those wav files to another format of your choice automatically.

The reason for using a different application for transcoding is because once a program like Foobar2000 is properly set up how you like it, you can leave it alone and transcode back and forth all day long among many different formats, complete with tag preservation, without worry or fuss. To do the same thing in Audiograbber you would have to use the external encoder section which can only remember one command line at a time, and which isn't 100% compatible with all possible command lines for different encoders. Plus the source format can only be wav.

You can still use Audiograbber to rip to wav if you want, and then convert using another program which is easy enough. Though, I would recommend looking into alternatives in the future. Ripping programs like EAC and dbPowerAmp are better choices when it comes to using external command line encoders compatibility-wise, and will save you a step by ripping directly from CD to the lossless format of your choice. Plus in the case of EAC, your CD ripping should be more secure error-wise as well.

Since your new to this, I would recommend just experimenting by setting up FLAC as an external encoder in Audiograbber. Make sure to turn off any ID3 tagging in the menus first (just to be sure since FLAC doesn't use ID3, it uses it's own system called Vorbis comments). When you select flac.exe as the "External MP3 program name" (don't be confused by the title, it should say encoder technically, not MP3) the predefined encoder settings should come up automatically (at least it does in 1.83). From the looks of it, this predefined command line will encode your wav files to FLAC using it's default settings (amount of compression should be about in the middle of the road for FLAC, which is -q5). Make sure Audiograbber is set to grab to MP3 (again, confusing I know) and either keep the wav or delete it (your choice).

[This message has been edited by XenoS on 13 September 2004 @ 20:06]

Disagree about your comment that EAC and DBPoweramp are better choices when it comes to use external codecs for compatibility reasons. Granted dbpoweramp is easier to use because the developer has written codec plug-ins for all types but have you tried the generic CLI one? Also he has another lame mp3 codec because the one bundled with DBPoweramp does not support all of the command lines for that codec. As for EAC I would say it was just as easy to set up as Audiograbber for codecs but it's interface makes it harder for beginners.

By the way XenoS there is a new experimental version of wav pack out which makes it a breeze to create hybrid files on EAC and other rippers. The link, which I do not have to hand, is on Hydrogen Audio.

[This message has been edited by XenoS on 14 September 2004 @ 12:38]

The link to the wavpack experimental file is here http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=24599&hl=

However 4.1 has just been released. http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=27571&hl=wavpack

However, if you want to save some disc space, you can use a lossless codec. It is like zipping a file; when the file is unzipped, it is the exact same file as before. As most players also play lossless coded audio, you never have to decode the files.

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moonroy, Moderator

Re: Flac
The problem though is that when I converted an existing Wav file that I had previously ripped using Audiograbber, it stripped out the Audiograbber ID3 tag info that was appended to the Wav file, so I ended up losing all the tag info. I would then have to re-enter all the information in the FLAC tag. Also the FLAC tag doesn't have all the fields that I like in the MP3s, whereas if I keep using Audiograbber and keep the Wav files that have the appended ID3 tag info, I can keep all the information I want. This is really only a problem for my existing Wav collection (which is quite extensive). I could start using Flac for new cd rips though and save the disc space from here on in.

Thanx to both of you for all your great info.

Just an update if anybody's interested.
I've just passed the corner of the initial learning curve. I'm now able to use both AG and EAC to make Flacs. I have just learned how to use Mareo with EAC, but haven't learned the variables/comand-line option to use Mareo with AG. I know how to use Foobar to do "transcoding" from my existing Wavs to Flac. Its unfortunate that I had to type all that tag info by hand into the Flacs. When I used AG to rip my original cds, I used the option "append ID3 tag info to Wav file" which of course got stripped out my the Flac encoder, so I had to re-type all the tages, big boooo. On the upside of that issue it that, I'll only have to type them once, since if I ever have to use my Flacs again to create mp3s or ogg or whatever, the tag info will be transfered over and it won't matter what front-end I use. With the Audiograbber Wav appending thing, I would be forced to use Audiograbber for the rest of my life if I wanted the tag information to be transfered my mp3s. And I'd have to stick to using MP3 format too. With this Flac system tag, it will transfer the tag info to any other format of the future, that's pretty cool.

I still however prefer Audiograbber over EAC because it has some great features and is really easy to use. I can use EAC and probably will for harder to rip cds, butrI'd really like to be able to use AG with Mareo--that would be my preferrence. I've started a new thread asking for help with that issue.

Anyways thanks for you guys patience in trying to explain all this to me. I'm definitly heading out of noooobbbeeee land!